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Predestination
Author: Jimd
Date: November 22, 2009, 10:41 pm
# of Replys: 145
Predestination and free will are not separate theologies, but different parts of one theology.
God has predestined us to face certain trial and tests in our lives. We are allowed free will to make any choice we desire at those points in time. Once we make a choice, everything that happens after that decision is made, is predestined, until God places another choice in our path. Of course, since God knows everything that we have ever done, He has a very good idea of which choice we will make. Therefore, before we are created in our mother's womb, God is aware of when, where, and how we will give our lives to Him.Gary, I may be wrong, but I think when henrywm asked the question, "'When you say that God 'has a very good idea of which choice we will make' what exactly do you mean? Is his foreknowledge less than exhaustive?" his question was being directed to you, not to Paco. I assume that by "a very good idea" you probably were using that as an understatement indicating that God's knowledge is exhaustive. That has been the historical position of most Arminians, but in recent years with the advent of "Open Theism" that can no longer be taken for granted.
But the point of departure where Jacob Arminius and the Remonstrants diverged from the followers of John Calvin (Arminius was a follower of Calvin up to a point) was that God's predestination and election of men to salvation was, in their view, based not upon God's sovereign choice (election), but upon his foreknowledge of what man's choice would be. Thus, in effect, the Arminian view changes election from God's sovereign choice conditioned on nothing outside of His own counsel, to God's ratification of man's choice, based upon his supposed freewill. This, however, flies in the face of Pauls teaching in Romans 9.
That this (Arminian) view is not what Paul actually means is clear from the arguments he gives in verses 14-15 and again in verses 19-21 against the opposition he has received from his teaching of this doctrine among some who could not accept it. Had Paul merely been teaching that God's election was based upon His foreknowledge of man's freewill choice to reject the gospel, would he have needed to justify himself in these two sections as he does? Clearly not.
The Bible also tells us that God has predestined not only "certain trial and tests in our lives," but that He has predestined everything in our lives. " that He causes.
Understanding how God can predestine all of history while still allowing man to possess free will is beyond our comprehension. But then, understanding how one Being can exist in three Persons is also beyond our comprehension, yet that is what is taught in Scripture.
Regards
Date: November 22, 2009, 10:41 pm
# of Replys: 145
Predestination and free will are not separate theologies, but different parts of one theology.
God has predestined us to face certain trial and tests in our lives. We are allowed free will to make any choice we desire at those points in time. Once we make a choice, everything that happens after that decision is made, is predestined, until God places another choice in our path. Of course, since God knows everything that we have ever done, He has a very good idea of which choice we will make. Therefore, before we are created in our mother's womb, God is aware of when, where, and how we will give our lives to Him.Gary, I may be wrong, but I think when henrywm asked the question, "'When you say that God 'has a very good idea of which choice we will make' what exactly do you mean? Is his foreknowledge less than exhaustive?" his question was being directed to you, not to Paco. I assume that by "a very good idea" you probably were using that as an understatement indicating that God's knowledge is exhaustive. That has been the historical position of most Arminians, but in recent years with the advent of "Open Theism" that can no longer be taken for granted.
But the point of departure where Jacob Arminius and the Remonstrants diverged from the followers of John Calvin (Arminius was a follower of Calvin up to a point) was that God's predestination and election of men to salvation was, in their view, based not upon God's sovereign choice (election), but upon his foreknowledge of what man's choice would be. Thus, in effect, the Arminian view changes election from God's sovereign choice conditioned on nothing outside of His own counsel, to God's ratification of man's choice, based upon his supposed freewill. This, however, flies in the face of Pauls teaching in Romans 9.
That this (Arminian) view is not what Paul actually means is clear from the arguments he gives in verses 14-15 and again in verses 19-21 against the opposition he has received from his teaching of this doctrine among some who could not accept it. Had Paul merely been teaching that God's election was based upon His foreknowledge of man's freewill choice to reject the gospel, would he have needed to justify himself in these two sections as he does? Clearly not.
The Bible also tells us that God has predestined not only "certain trial and tests in our lives," but that He has predestined everything in our lives. " that He causes.
Understanding how God can predestine all of history while still allowing man to possess free will is beyond our comprehension. But then, understanding how one Being can exist in three Persons is also beyond our comprehension, yet that is what is taught in Scripture.
Regards
Predestination
Author: Paco
Date: November 22, 2009, 9:08 pm
# of Replys: 145
i mean God Knows EVERYTHING
however, some make the argument that: people have free will to choose God -- He Knows who will do so -- He Elects these people
that contradicts Scripture imo as we're DEAD & choose God
you may not agree but does my pt now make sense?
Date: November 22, 2009, 9:08 pm
# of Replys: 145
i mean God Knows EVERYTHING
however, some make the argument that: people have free will to choose God -- He Knows who will do so -- He Elects these people
that contradicts Scripture imo as we're DEAD & choose God
you may not agree but does my pt now make sense?
Predestination
Author: henrywm
Date: November 22, 2009, 9:00 pm
# of Replys: 145
When you say that God "has a very good idea of which choice we will make" what exactly do you mean? Is his foreknowledge less than exhaustive?
Date: November 22, 2009, 9:00 pm
# of Replys: 145
When you say that God "has a very good idea of which choice we will make" what exactly do you mean? Is his foreknowledge less than exhaustive?
Predestination
Author: Paco
Date: November 22, 2009, 8:58 pm
# of Replys: 145
Would you say God Elects us because He Knows the future & Sees that we'd accept Him? -- many like this argument but it belies the Scripture imo -- we are dead & cannot choose God -- it's ALL God...
Date: November 22, 2009, 8:58 pm
# of Replys: 145
Would you say God Elects us because He Knows the future & Sees that we'd accept Him? -- many like this argument but it belies the Scripture imo -- we are dead & cannot choose God -- it's ALL God...
Predestination
Author: Gary Sechler
Date: November 22, 2009, 8:54 pm
# of Replys: 145
Predestination and free will are not separate theologies, but different parts of one theology.
God has predestined us to face certain trial and tests in our lives. We are allowed free will to make any choice we desire at those points in time. Once we make a choice, everything that happens after that decision is made, is predestined, until God places another choice in our path. Of course, since God knows everything that we have ever done, He has a very good idea of which choice we will make. Therefore, before we are created in our mother's womb, God is aware of when, where, and how we will give our lives to Him.
<><=======><>
Gary Sechler
The fish is an ancient symbol for a Christian.
A Christian should go anywhere God leads
and leave behind a trail of fairness and equality
Date: November 22, 2009, 8:54 pm
# of Replys: 145
Predestination and free will are not separate theologies, but different parts of one theology.
God has predestined us to face certain trial and tests in our lives. We are allowed free will to make any choice we desire at those points in time. Once we make a choice, everything that happens after that decision is made, is predestined, until God places another choice in our path. Of course, since God knows everything that we have ever done, He has a very good idea of which choice we will make. Therefore, before we are created in our mother's womb, God is aware of when, where, and how we will give our lives to Him.
<><=======><>
Gary Sechler
The fish is an ancient symbol for a Christian.
A Christian should go anywhere God leads
and leave behind a trail of fairness and equality
A Fresh Look At Salvation
Author: Jennifer Dent
Date: November 22, 2009, 12:26 am
# of Replys: 1
We have a post that discusses God's plan of Salvation
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=367
happy reading.
Date: November 22, 2009, 12:26 am
# of Replys: 1
We have a post that discusses God's plan of Salvation
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=367
happy reading.
Nice to meet all of you
Author: SoundJohn
Date: November 21, 2009, 4:55 pm
# of Replys: 0
Hey! Thanx for this beautiful place of the Inet!!
Date: November 21, 2009, 4:55 pm
# of Replys: 0
Hey! Thanx for this beautiful place of the Inet!!
A Fresh Look At Salvation
Author: Earth Salvation
Date: November 21, 2009, 4:12 pm
# of Replys: 1
WOULD YOU LIKE TO BE SAVED?
Doesn't that sound great? Well you can be, if you want. All you have to do is confess in your mouth "Jesus is Lord" and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead. It's that simple.
SAVED FROM WHAT?
Saved from God's wrath. Yes, God is angry with us for disobeying His law. If one of us steals something, then we have laws to punish us. We have broken the law. God is the same way. If we break one of His laws he wants to punish us. We have all broken God's law many times. We are all guilty before God, therefore, we are all under His wrath and in need of Salvation.
GOD'S PLAN OF SALVATION
That is what Jesus Christ is all about. He is God's plan to save us. Jesus Christ is a sacrifice to cover our sin: our disobedience to God's law, which we are all guilty of. He became a human sacrifice for our sin. Isn't that wonderful? He was a perfect man, he had no sin. He always kept the law of God. So he was a perfect sacrifice. He had no sin.
You may think that sounds kind of silly that Jesus was a sacrifice for our sin. Well, it may be, but that is how God works. It is God's way of thinking not ours. It is in accordance with his law not ours. In God's way of thinking without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin. So that is what Jesus Christ was doing hanging up there on the cross: dying for your sins and mine. He was making a sacrifice for our sin, he gave His life for our life. It is we who are guilty of sin. It is we who should be put to death, but God wanted to save us so He had Jesus die in our place. He put our sin on Jesus and brought salvation for us.
So that is why we must accept Jesus as our Lord, he is the savior from our sin. When we confess in our mouth, "Jesus is Lord, "we are accepting him as Lord and Savior. This puts us in right standing with God. This is His way of saving us. Isn't that wonderful? God cares so much for us that He had his son die for us. He must love us very much.
HOW TO BE SAVED
So all you have to do, on your part, is simply confess in your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," just confess him in your mouth, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead: that's not so hard, you can do it, it's easy, and God loves it, it makes him happy.
CONCLUSION
So what are you waiting for? Confess in your mouth, "Jesus is Lord." This is calling upon the name of the Lord. It is written, "All who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved." Don't delay. God is waiting for you. Give Him your heart, and He will not let you down.
Date: November 21, 2009, 4:12 pm
# of Replys: 1
WOULD YOU LIKE TO BE SAVED?
Doesn't that sound great? Well you can be, if you want. All you have to do is confess in your mouth "Jesus is Lord" and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead. It's that simple.
SAVED FROM WHAT?
Saved from God's wrath. Yes, God is angry with us for disobeying His law. If one of us steals something, then we have laws to punish us. We have broken the law. God is the same way. If we break one of His laws he wants to punish us. We have all broken God's law many times. We are all guilty before God, therefore, we are all under His wrath and in need of Salvation.
GOD'S PLAN OF SALVATION
That is what Jesus Christ is all about. He is God's plan to save us. Jesus Christ is a sacrifice to cover our sin: our disobedience to God's law, which we are all guilty of. He became a human sacrifice for our sin. Isn't that wonderful? He was a perfect man, he had no sin. He always kept the law of God. So he was a perfect sacrifice. He had no sin.
You may think that sounds kind of silly that Jesus was a sacrifice for our sin. Well, it may be, but that is how God works. It is God's way of thinking not ours. It is in accordance with his law not ours. In God's way of thinking without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin. So that is what Jesus Christ was doing hanging up there on the cross: dying for your sins and mine. He was making a sacrifice for our sin, he gave His life for our life. It is we who are guilty of sin. It is we who should be put to death, but God wanted to save us so He had Jesus die in our place. He put our sin on Jesus and brought salvation for us.
So that is why we must accept Jesus as our Lord, he is the savior from our sin. When we confess in our mouth, "Jesus is Lord, "we are accepting him as Lord and Savior. This puts us in right standing with God. This is His way of saving us. Isn't that wonderful? God cares so much for us that He had his son die for us. He must love us very much.
HOW TO BE SAVED
So all you have to do, on your part, is simply confess in your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," just confess him in your mouth, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead: that's not so hard, you can do it, it's easy, and God loves it, it makes him happy.
CONCLUSION
So what are you waiting for? Confess in your mouth, "Jesus is Lord." This is calling upon the name of the Lord. It is written, "All who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved." Don't delay. God is waiting for you. Give Him your heart, and He will not let you down.
hard heart
Author: dcljoy
Date: November 20, 2009, 7:22 pm
# of Replys: 3
God generally governs His universe by the laws He has established .... this applies to human beings as well as to everything else.
It is so important to read the Bible as a whole, to learn about God, and the laws He has put in place for human beings to function at their optimum. A fundamental rule is that a person reaps what he/she sows.
The verse you quote is hard because it makes God seem unfair, like the petty kings and despots we know who do as they please. But from the rest of the Bible we can see that God is not like that.
The NT also helps, because in Jesus we see God more clearly than anywhere else, and Jesus repeats the rule of 'cause and effect' .... as in
This was said in the context of why some people responded to Jesus and why some did not .....
Then in Romans, Paul again explains :
God is sovereign, and He is also Just.
Date: November 20, 2009, 7:22 pm
# of Replys: 3
God generally governs His universe by the laws He has established .... this applies to human beings as well as to everything else.
It is so important to read the Bible as a whole, to learn about God, and the laws He has put in place for human beings to function at their optimum. A fundamental rule is that a person reaps what he/she sows.
The verse you quote is hard because it makes God seem unfair, like the petty kings and despots we know who do as they please. But from the rest of the Bible we can see that God is not like that.
The NT also helps, because in Jesus we see God more clearly than anywhere else, and Jesus repeats the rule of 'cause and effect' .... as in
This was said in the context of why some people responded to Jesus and why some did not .....
Then in Romans, Paul again explains :
God is sovereign, and He is also Just.
hard heart
Author: cw-nf
Date: November 20, 2009, 6:29 pm
# of Replys: 3
Just a thought only God knows his reasons for what he does, why people are unresponsive, so let's look at it.
God's mercy is under His will, the generation that came out of Egypt did not enter the Canaan-rest because of unbelief.
The compromises proposed by Pharaoh/world are those urged upon Christians today, invariably it ends in world-conformity.
There is another Gospel which Pharaoh used, "which is not another" but a perversion of the true Gospel of the Grace of God.
Against which we are warned. Exodus 9:11; Galations 1:6; the test of the Gospel is grace.
Romans 9:18 we are warned ---Pharaoh invariably denies the sufficiency of God alone, and he mingles his power with some kind of human merit. Exodus 7:11; So Aaron was the rod of life, the rod of the Priest.
As the serpents symbols of Satan, who had power of death, Rev 12:9; Hebrews 2:14; Hebrews 2:1-4
Self-righteousness: the futile efort of man to work out his own Salvation, a character which God can approve.
Rev 14:8; So we see the Idol/Beast worshipers announced as worthless by God, which proves, the purpose of God in LOVE, and the Purpose of God in judgment. Exodus 7:1
Hope is putting faith to work when doubting would be easier.
The one who draws nigh to God one step through doubting dim, God will advance a mile to him.
The Passover, type of Christ our Redeemer Exodus 12:1-28; The Lamb tested must be slain.
Date: November 20, 2009, 6:29 pm
# of Replys: 3
Just a thought only God knows his reasons for what he does, why people are unresponsive, so let's look at it.
God's mercy is under His will, the generation that came out of Egypt did not enter the Canaan-rest because of unbelief.
The compromises proposed by Pharaoh/world are those urged upon Christians today, invariably it ends in world-conformity.
There is another Gospel which Pharaoh used, "which is not another" but a perversion of the true Gospel of the Grace of God.
Against which we are warned. Exodus 9:11; Galations 1:6; the test of the Gospel is grace.
Romans 9:18 we are warned ---Pharaoh invariably denies the sufficiency of God alone, and he mingles his power with some kind of human merit. Exodus 7:11; So Aaron was the rod of life, the rod of the Priest.
As the serpents symbols of Satan, who had power of death, Rev 12:9; Hebrews 2:14; Hebrews 2:1-4
Self-righteousness: the futile efort of man to work out his own Salvation, a character which God can approve.
Rev 14:8; So we see the Idol/Beast worshipers announced as worthless by God, which proves, the purpose of God in LOVE, and the Purpose of God in judgment. Exodus 7:1
Hope is putting faith to work when doubting would be easier.
The one who draws nigh to God one step through doubting dim, God will advance a mile to him.
The Passover, type of Christ our Redeemer Exodus 12:1-28; The Lamb tested must be slain.
hard heart
Author: wsbvcarl
Date: November 20, 2009, 12:16 pm
# of Replys: 3
EXPLAIN EXDUS 9:12, THE KING'S HEART WAS HARDEN BY GOD?
Date: November 20, 2009, 12:16 pm
# of Replys: 3
EXPLAIN EXDUS 9:12, THE KING'S HEART WAS HARDEN BY GOD?
Manhattan Declaration: A Call of Christian Conscience
Author: Gideon
Date: November 20, 2009, 11:41 am
# of Replys: 0
Today a group of prominent Christian clergy, ministry leaders and scholars released the Manhattan Declaration, addressing the sanctity of life, traditional marriage and religious liberty.
"Christians are heirs of a 2,000-year tradition of proclaiming God’s word, seeking justice in our societies, resisting tyranny, and reaching out with compassion to the poor, oppressed and suffering.
"While fully acknowledging the imperfections and shortcomings of Christian institutions and communities in all ages, we claim the heritage of those Christians who defended innocent life by rescuing discarded babies from trash heaps in Roman cities and publicly denouncing the Empire’s sanctioning of infanticide. We remember with reverence those believers who sacrificed their lives by remaining in Roman cities to tend the sick and dying during the plagues, and who died bravely in the coliseums rather than deny their Lord."
Date: November 20, 2009, 11:41 am
# of Replys: 0
Today a group of prominent Christian clergy, ministry leaders and scholars released the Manhattan Declaration, addressing the sanctity of life, traditional marriage and religious liberty.
"Christians are heirs of a 2,000-year tradition of proclaiming God’s word, seeking justice in our societies, resisting tyranny, and reaching out with compassion to the poor, oppressed and suffering.
"While fully acknowledging the imperfections and shortcomings of Christian institutions and communities in all ages, we claim the heritage of those Christians who defended innocent life by rescuing discarded babies from trash heaps in Roman cities and publicly denouncing the Empire’s sanctioning of infanticide. We remember with reverence those believers who sacrificed their lives by remaining in Roman cities to tend the sick and dying during the plagues, and who died bravely in the coliseums rather than deny their Lord."
Tattoo
Author: Todd Charske
Date: November 20, 2009, 7:39 am
# of Replys: 23
My tattoo is a cross with wings and a crown of thorns as a halo. Under neath it says "He died so we may live" Check it out, click the link.
It's not what I would do but how does that not glorify God? Body is your temple ok sure and the Old Testament maybe a set of "rules" to follow. Although too many people in my opinion get the idea that Christ and God constrain us to rules instead of Free US! Christ is not the Great restrictor Christ sets us FREE! Free of Sin, Free of Guilt, the Abba Father, etc etc. When people start implementing all these rules on every follower then they are playing God and I’m pretty sure that the only true God does not take that lightly! Just my thoughts hope I do not offend anyone but I’m tired of listening to people that claim to follow Christ and then Act like they are God themselves. The whole plank in my eye vs splinter in yours etc should ring loud to some! I ask that Christians in general begin accepting people just like Christ accepts me, a ing sinner, and loves me despite my flaws! I pray this but only after I ask for forgiveness of my sins.
- Todd Charske
Date: November 20, 2009, 7:39 am
# of Replys: 23
My tattoo is a cross with wings and a crown of thorns as a halo. Under neath it says "He died so we may live" Check it out, click the link.
It's not what I would do but how does that not glorify God? Body is your temple ok sure and the Old Testament maybe a set of "rules" to follow. Although too many people in my opinion get the idea that Christ and God constrain us to rules instead of Free US! Christ is not the Great restrictor Christ sets us FREE! Free of Sin, Free of Guilt, the Abba Father, etc etc. When people start implementing all these rules on every follower then they are playing God and I’m pretty sure that the only true God does not take that lightly! Just my thoughts hope I do not offend anyone but I’m tired of listening to people that claim to follow Christ and then Act like they are God themselves. The whole plank in my eye vs splinter in yours etc should ring loud to some! I ask that Christians in general begin accepting people just like Christ accepts me, a ing sinner, and loves me despite my flaws! I pray this but only after I ask for forgiveness of my sins.
- Todd Charske
In the Spirit vs. In the Flesh
Author: pastorjohn
Date: November 19, 2009, 8:06 pm
# of Replys: 22
I would suggest that Proverbs and Song of Songs also be taught to our youth.
Perhaps, we will talk again about the insidious nature of legalism - which was a problem that both our Lord and Paul confronted regularly and forcefully.
It is always abut the heart - or as our Lord spoke - "the inside of the cup."
John
Date: November 19, 2009, 8:06 pm
# of Replys: 22
I would suggest that Proverbs and Song of Songs also be taught to our youth.
Perhaps, we will talk again about the insidious nature of legalism - which was a problem that both our Lord and Paul confronted regularly and forcefully.
It is always abut the heart - or as our Lord spoke - "the inside of the cup."
John
Christmas
Author: kylerhockey
Date: November 19, 2009, 5:21 pm
# of Replys: 0
Hello all,
I know it's a little early to start thinking about Christmas, but I just wanted to share a little about what I am doing. Recently I have become aware of the amount of people In the world who do not have clean drinking water. It works out to about 1.1 billion people, that's 1 in 6 people on earth. I feel that this number is unacceptable. Because of this I have decided to give up my Christmas in order to het back to the real reason Jesus came. By this I mean that I am no longer going to be receiving gifts, as well as cutting back on all the meaningless gifts that I give to people. Every year America spends $450 billion on Christmas, but get this: it is estimated that only $10 billion will solve the worlds clean water problem. Please, this holiday season consider giving to http://mycharitywater.org/givingupchristmas 100% of donations will go directly toward building wells in under developed countries. Thank you.
Date: November 19, 2009, 5:21 pm
# of Replys: 0
Hello all,
I know it's a little early to start thinking about Christmas, but I just wanted to share a little about what I am doing. Recently I have become aware of the amount of people In the world who do not have clean drinking water. It works out to about 1.1 billion people, that's 1 in 6 people on earth. I feel that this number is unacceptable. Because of this I have decided to give up my Christmas in order to het back to the real reason Jesus came. By this I mean that I am no longer going to be receiving gifts, as well as cutting back on all the meaningless gifts that I give to people. Every year America spends $450 billion on Christmas, but get this: it is estimated that only $10 billion will solve the worlds clean water problem. Please, this holiday season consider giving to http://mycharitywater.org/givingupchristmas 100% of donations will go directly toward building wells in under developed countries. Thank you.
Christian Nation
Author: henrywm
Date: November 19, 2009, 3:50 pm
# of Replys: 20
Our country was founded on Christian principles. Even founders like Jefferson who were not Christians nonetheless operated under many of the assumptions of the Christian worldview. The Christian influence was a key element in what distinguished the American Revolution from the intentionally secular French Revolution. Over the years we have to a large degree abandoned this foundation. It is no surprise that our country has the problems it is now facing. A return to the Gospel is the key to a true reformation of this country.
I would not, however, be in favor of mandating religious adherence because it would be futile. A government could never force real trust in Christ.
Date: November 19, 2009, 3:50 pm
# of Replys: 20
Our country was founded on Christian principles. Even founders like Jefferson who were not Christians nonetheless operated under many of the assumptions of the Christian worldview. The Christian influence was a key element in what distinguished the American Revolution from the intentionally secular French Revolution. Over the years we have to a large degree abandoned this foundation. It is no surprise that our country has the problems it is now facing. A return to the Gospel is the key to a true reformation of this country.
I would not, however, be in favor of mandating religious adherence because it would be futile. A government could never force real trust in Christ.
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